Kristian, thanks for making the time to speak to me. I appreciate it.

KP: No worries. How are you doing? Is everything good?

I’m good, thanks. I’m at the gym. Have you been to the gym since the fight?

Yeah, a bit. Not boxing, but just some workouts, running… not boxing. Next week.

Has it been nice being back in Albania?

Let me show you… (He turns his camera around and shows me the ocean.) It’s amazing, brother. You should come. And you’re welcome. It’s amazing. The water is amazing. It’s clean.

Have you been relaxing and chilling since the fight?

Yeah.

Have you watched the fight back?

To be honest, not everything. I don’t want to see it. I just want a little bit of chilling. But I’m gonna see it.

What are your memories of the fight? You had him down in 30 seconds and people thought it was all over…

To be honest, I was thinking I was going to finish the fight, but in the first round he was holding me and trying to hold me and hold me, and I thought I was going to finish him in the first round. My plan is, at the start, first, second or third, you know? And second round, I don’t know what happened.

Were you shocked that, after 30 seconds, you had Anthony Joshua on the floor?

To be honest, no. I knew I was going to drop him, but maybe not in 30 seconds. But I knew I was going to drop him.

What was the difference between the first and second rounds? Your approach seemed to change.

You know, sometimes when I go in the ring, I just focus on my trainer’s voice. I don’t hear nobody there. And sometimes when I go in the corner, he goes to me, just jab and double jab and just control the breathing. He doesn’t want me to go [all out]. I don’t know, maybe. I don’t know. I don’t talk to my trainer actually after the fight. I say I want to talk later. And maybe he wants to save because it’s 12 rounds, right? And he says control the breathing, move around, double jab, but I love to go. Maybe it’s better just to go. I can stop him. Maybe second round I finish the fight. And I go the wrong way, I go onto his right hand. It’s not my style to go back. My style is boxing to go forward. Pressure. But God’s plan is for him to win and I am blessed, and God bless him because I’m happy with what God brings to me.

But do you have regret that you didn’t jump on him in the second round?

A lot. A lot. I know if I go, maybe I finish the fight. But, whatever.

They played the video later of your corner and what your coach told you between rounds about staying calm. Now people have seen the instructions, and I don’t think many agreed with the instructions.

I don’t know what to say to this. Maybe he was being professional and trying to fight 12 rounds, but I think it’s better for me to go, to go only. Because I dropped him [Joshua] not two times, I dropped him three times because one time he went into the ropes and he [the referee] doesn’t count. And why go back in the second round and control the fight? Go early and stop the fight. Why am I going to calm down when I had him in my hands?

Obviously, you were upset on the night. Since the fight, people thought you had the fight to win and they thought that maybe you took money or took a bribe to change your tactics before the second round.

First thing, I’m not for sale. That’s the first thing. I promise you.

Second thing, why am I gonna sell the fight? If I win, I’m gonna make more money than selling the fight.

When you hurt Joshua, were you thinking, ‘I’m going to get the Fury fight at Wembley, I can fight Usyk… I get the massive title fights’? Are you thinking that in the excitement of it all?

No, because I don’t like to make plans. It’s never been my plan to fight Anthony Joshua. I loved to fight him. I said to my trainers and everybody, I hope I’m gonna fight Joshua. And God brings it to me, but I don’t like to make a plan. My plans I love to make are only God’s.

We know what happened in the second round, but what was Joshua’s power like? Was it unlike anything you’d felt before?

Of course, it’s power because it’s the first time I got knocked down in my career, in my life. I’ve never been knocked down in sparring. It’s the first time. I think he has the power.

People think that, with the performance you put up now, Joshua looks like an old fighter, and that the fight with Tyson Fury is now not one between two of the best heavyweights in the world. Do you still think Joshua is one of the best?

It’s not true. Joshua is a great fighter. He has experience. He has power and I know he went through a lot in his life – as we all know. But it’s not an easy fight for Tyson Fury. I promise you.

Is it too early for you, Kristian, to say what you want to do next?

I’m waiting with my manager, Keith Sullivan, to say for me. I am ready to go. I am just waiting for him. I don’t have a promoter right now. I don’t sign with anybody. Maybe I will go with Matchroom or whatever, who’s good, who my manager says, whatever.

Your stock has risen in defeat. You’re more valuable now than you were before, and that is not always the case when you lose a fight.

Yes, because before the fight everyone said, ‘Who’s this guy?’ and ‘Why’s he fighting Joshua?’ ‘He fights nobody. He’s stopped everybody in the first or second round.’ But now what are they gonna say? I dropped Joshua in the first round, too. Joshua is a two-time world champion, Olympic champion. He’s never got dropped in the first round like that. I know I have the power.

Did you feel there was no pressure on you because people wrote you off?

I didn’t have the pressure.

Does that mean it was easier for you, without that pressure?

Yes.

Did I hear you right? Did you say you’d not spoken to your trainer since the fight?

No, I spoke to him, but not about the fight. I said, ‘No details.’ He’s happy, you know. My manager is happy. Everybody in Albania is happy. I am not happy. I go for the win, I didn’t go to be an opponent.

Do you take some happiness from the fact that you put yourself on the map?

Yeah, I’m happy because I showed it to people in boxing who I am. Because they say I stopped maybe not good boxers, they say I fought not good fighters because I stopped them in the first or second round because I stopped them all in a few rounds. And now, they say nothing.

When will you be able to watch the fight back?

To be honest, I just want to try to get over it a little bit.

How long will you stay in Albania?

I’d love to stay [forever], but I need to go back and train, maybe next week. Maybe two more weeks. I cannot fight for three months because I’m suspended and I’m going to start training.

Do you believe now, with the experience that you have, that you can become world heavyweight champion?

I believe. I believe in myself.

Do you believe in yourself more now after what you did to Joshua?

To be honest, yes, because it was the first time in a big arena. I think there’s no pressure, but the world was watching, many people, big arena, it’s the first time, but I think the second time is easier and third time is more easier.

I see you’re wearing a Whoop band. Are you getting sleep again now?

Last night? No, last night I had all my cousins here, 50 people (laughs). I go for dinner, stayed to 2am, wake up at 7.30am.

So a red recovery?

Yes, red recovery!!

Well, I hope you enjoyed it! Thanks for speaking to me. I appreciate it.

I appreciate you, too, brother. Thank you so much.

(All photos by Mark Robinson/Matchroom Boxing)

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Earlier today, speaking from a car via Zoom, Moses Itauma hosted a Q and A with the UK media. This is what Itauma, who fights Filip Hrgovic on August 29 for the vacant IBF heavywieght title, live on DAZN, had to say.

Moses, I’ll fire straight in. So I just wanted to check the overriding feeling when you heard that this would be for the world title. Obviously, you’re already preparing for the biggest fight of your career, biggest test of your career, and now the world title is attached to it. Was it excitement? Was it joy? Was it, oh, OK, like, how did you feel when you first heard that news confirmed?

To be honest, for me, like, I didn’t really have no reaction. I was like, if I’m fighting Hrgovic and I’ve got the opportunity for it to be a world title, I said, ‘Yeah, chuck the world title on the line.’ I didn’t really have no feeling. I was taking Hrgovic seriously, and now that the fight’s for a world title, I’m still taking him seriously.

Good point.

And Frank Warren, yesterday, when we spoke to him, he kind of turned it round on us and said, who do we all think is the number one hottest property in boxing? And he said, look, it’s obviously Moses. He’s the number one, if you were going to make that argument. Now, as boxers in history would agree and would say, that’s exactly what I am.

Would you, is that how you consider yourself? Would you agree with Frank? Is that, would you make that statement yourself?

What, that I’m a hot property?

That you’re the number one hottest property in world boxing?

Oh, man. I appreciate the compliment from Frank Warren.

Yeah, but do you agree?

Do I agree?

You’re allowed to say yes. Many people would. Many, many, many people would agree.

You know what it is? I just think I’ve developed into the person, the character and the fighter I want to be, as I feel like a lot of people that are up there have. And I feel like it’s hard to ignore, like, Jaron Ennis, Shakur Stevenson. Like, they’re all still kind of young.

Like, so I wouldn’t be able to say that I outshine them, if that makes sense.

Moses, if you’re the top young heavyweight at the moment, which I think and others think you probably are, you’re coming into this little gap left by Usyk and one of you is going to come through as the contender to become the next undisputed champion, we think. If you’re the top contender, who do you think is your biggest rival in that group of young fighters?

It’ll have to be Agit Kabayel, innit? He’s kind of, he’s beat everybody that’s there. He’s pretty much beat everybody that’s rising right now. So I’d probably say he will probably be the biggest rival.

And Hrgovic, not the young buck, but what’s your assessment of him? Only one defeat. Your thoughts on him? How much do you rate him?

Of course, he’s a very good fighter. He’s only had one defeat and he only lost because of a cut, you know what I mean? So yeah, he’s solid.

I’m in for a long night, but I’ll be all right.

Oh, I think you’ll be all right. Thank you and good luck, young man.

Hi Moses, thank you so much for your time. If you do beat Hrgovic, you’ll become the second youngest world heavyweight champion ever. Mike Tyson was younger.

Would you have ever seen Tyson’s fight against Trevor Berbick when he became the youngest world heavyweight champion with one of the most devastating finishes that has been seen in heavyweight boxing?

Yeah, I did watch, of course. But Tyson’s had his career. I’m still making my career, you know what I mean? Of course, I tried to set out a goal to become the youngest heavyweight world champion.

I didn’t achieve it, but I landed a Dillian Whyte fight, you know? So it’s like step by step. What do they say? You shoot for the stars, you land at the moon or something along the lines of that.

Tyson said after that fight a lot of things, but mainly that he was, these punches were coming with bad intentions.

Do you want to make a similar statement and have that kind of force that will open up your win to a wider audience than just the boxing hardcore?

To be honest, I just had an interview with the BBC and they said, they asked me, what’s the one thing that people don’t know about Moses Itauma? And I said, I don’t actually want to be under the bright lights, but with the way I’m going, it looks like I ain’t got no choice. So, I don’t know.

I know you don’t like the media, but is it getting slightly easier?

I think I’m learning how to deal with the media. I think I just, I think when I first started professionally, the problem is just like, you’re always talking about what you’re going to do and it’s like you haven’t yet proven it.

Moses, you mentioned Filip Hrgovic and he’s capable of giving you a long night in there. I think we all saw that moment in your last fight where you kind of said to Ben [Davison], ‘Oh, I might have come out a little bit too fast here.’ I think you might have been feeling the pace a little bit.

Do you feel like that’s kind of giving you the confidence for this one to know that you can overcome those difficult moments in fights?

No, not really. I wasn’t feeling the pace that Jermaine Franklin was setting. I’ve set a pace too high for Jermaine Franklin.

It wasn’t something that Jermaine Franklin was setting about me. I was saying earlier today, I feel like I took the necessary steps to get me to this position. I haven’t gone from Mariusz Wach straight to Filip Hrgovic.

I think I might have found out or learned a couple of things where I might have not been ready for. Whereas I feel like as of right now, I think I’m in a good space.

You mentioned, obviously, sort of being more familiar with media commitments now. But I feel like with this camp, it seems like you’ve been doing a lot of media. Has that presented more of a challenge, maybe in terms of your training, that you’ve not encountered before?

Yeah, to be honest, I’ve said no to a lot of things.

So if you’re saying I’m doing a lot, I’m sure I can say no to a few more.

Just finally from me, I’ve seen you’ve been sparring that German heavyweight, the Olympic bronze medallist. I was just wondering, could you see him sort of being an opponent down the line for you? And how have those rounds gone?

I don’t think I see him as an opponent at the minute.

I guess not because he’s so early in his career. And obviously, I’m about to fight for a world title. But I do wish him all the best.

He’s very sharp, very strong. I’ve been sparring him for years now. I remember when I was 17, I used to drive to where he lives in Cologne. I used to drive to him to spar him at his home gym. And I used to spend just a weekend sparring him and all of his clubmates, if you get what I mean. So yeah, he’s a good friend of mine.

I wish him all the best.

Awesome, thanks. Thanks, Moses.

Hi, Moses. Thank you for your time. I was just reading that the first book that probably got you into reading was Hustle Harder, Hustle Smarter by 50 Cent.

Why that book?

It was the first book I completed. But there were like four or five books where I’ve picked up and I’ve read. And like, I read that first 20 pages. I’m like, I can’t do this reading stuff. And I just put the book down.

But it was just more... I just found that I didn’t find books that I clicked with. And that 50 Cent book, Hustle Harder, Hustle Smarter, was the first one I clicked with. Well, what got me into that book? I don’t know.

I think I remember coming across it on YouTube and I saw the audiobook and I just started playing the audiobook. And then I just ended up buying the book and started reading it.

If there was one thing you took from it, what was it?

The one thing that I can take from the 50 Cent book would probably be... There’s one chapter that says, ‘evolve or die’. And it’s basically talking about you have to evolve with the times. Or it might be you never get too close to a drowning person. You try to help them from a distance. Because if you get too close to a drowning person, then he’ll pull you down with you. You try to help from a distance, but if they get too close and they start hanging on to you, otherwise, you’ll get pulled under yourself. Fair enough.

And do you think you have to be a hustler in boxing?

Oh yeah, 100%. 100%.

How have you hustled in boxing?

I don’t know how to answer that question.

Fair enough. Thank you for your time.

All right, thank you.

Thanks for doing this. It’s always good to chat.

Hey, speaking to Frank yesterday, he was obviously talking about you being hot property and that kind of stuff. What is it about you that’s captured the imagination of the fans?

I don’t know. I don’t know because, like, I just, I try to be authentic when I’m on camera.

And then obviously in my boxing, I guess it seems like I’m putting on entertaining fights. So I feel like that’s got a part to play in it. I wouldn’t really know.

I guess I’m not braggadocious. I’m not swaggerdocious. I don’t do anything extraordinary outside the ring.

I don’t know. In my mind, I feel like it might be just because I come across as myself. I don’t try to be anyone else.

And obviously the highlight reel helps, right? The highlight reel knockouts. And in that way, that’s somehow similar to how they did build Mike Tyson back in the day, right?

They just put these highlight reels together of him just icing people.

But I think obviously Mike Tyson was obviously well known for the stuff that he used to say outside the ring as well, so.

Yeah, that’s true. And obviously on the 29th, you’re gonna walk out in front of about 20,000 people.

There is talk, providing you come through this, of stadium fights next year. Like the feeling you get walking in front of 20,000 fans and then maybe 70,000, 80,000 fans. Is that something that you really enjoy?

I haven’t really thought about that because if I don’t get past Hrgovic, there ain’t gonna be no stadium fights or nothing.

But say for the Hrgovic fight, when you do walk out from behind the curtain there and you’ve got all those fans there, do you enjoy that? Is that when the adrenaline kicks in?

Do you know what? I remember the Jermaine Franklin fight.

Yeah, I remember. When everybody was going, ‘Oh, Moses Itauma…’ I just wanna sit there and just listen to it and just appreciate it.

But it’s hard because it’s like, I’m in the ring fighting, you get what I mean? So it’s like, you try to appreciate, you try to take it in, but at the same time, you don’t wanna be starstruck that obviously you get caught out.

Yeah, top man. All right, thanks, Moses.

Declan and Tris have already said about Frank calling you one of the hottest properties in boxing at the moment.

Teddy Atlas went a little bit further when he compared you to Mike Tyson. He said you’d had more attributes than what Mike had at the same age. Really? How do comparisons like that make you feel? Do you just take it all on board or?

Teddy Atlas said that, yeah?

Yeah, he said at a similar age, he said Tyson was just more one-paced, just destructive. He said you use a lot more. But how do those comparisons make you feel?

To be honest, I’m pretty sure Teddy Atlas and Mike, I feel, Teddy Atlas put a gun to Mike Tyson’s head before, no? I think he just doesn’t like Mike Tyson.

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Today, Frank Warren hosted a media roundtable for a handful of journalists. Here is what the Hall of Fame promoter had to say

Frank, can I just dive in? Thanks for your time. I just wanted to, obviously, great news for everyone involved with this fight being sanctioned by the IBF.

Now, we obviously were told or they said that they wanted Frank Sanchez to box Moses for it. I just wondered, from your point of view, what was the process to get to where we are now, where this fight in London is going to be for that belt?

Well, the timings are we’d already made the fight. It’s a great fight, always going to be a tough fight and a big test for Moses.

And the fact that Usyk vacated the belts and this opportunity, we felt there was a big opportunity there for him to, or for us to secure the crack at the title for him and upgrade the fight for the vacant belt, that’s what we did – so a deal was done with Sanchez.

And here we are. We’ve got, for Moses, the opportunity to become the second youngest ever world heavyweight champion after Mike Tyson. And the second, certainly since the War, the second youngest fighter to win a world title after Naseem Hamed.

So, you know, it ticks all the boxes.

Was it a case of, or can you tell us if it’s a case of step aside money, quote unquote, step aside money for Frank Sanchez? Was it as simple as that?

Well, you know, Frank Sanchez and his manager, they certainly are not benevolent people.

Since you were already arranged for this particular opponent, it’s clear that you think he’s ready for this, even though the world title is added to it. It’s more exciting, but he’s as ready for this fight as he’ll ever be.

Well, I hope so.

You know, he’s only had 14 fights, so this is a massive step up for him. You know, he’s in with a guy, I mean, you’ve all seen him fight – Hrgovic. He’s got a stellar amateur record, and as a pro, he’s only lost one fight.

He’s got 15 KOs, he can punch, and he fancies it, Hrgovic. You know, he really does think that he’s got the skills to beat Moses. He thinks he’s got the experience, and we’re going to find out.

You know, Moses, as a pro, and you look at the amount of rounds he’s got under his belt, they’re not a lot of rounds, but we believe in him, and I do think this is a fight that I hope he comes through and will show the world what a talent he is.

One of his talents, if you like, Hrgovic, is that he’s proved that he can take very big punches in a couple of his fights against the Chinese fighter [Zhilei Zhang] and those guys. It makes it a more fascinating test, in a way, doesn’t it?

Well, it does, and also think of the shots he [Hrgovic] took from Daniel Dubois, and you see what Dubois did with AJ.

You know, he is a strong guy. He’s a very, very strong guy, and he punches hard himself. Again, now look at the fight he had with Daniel in Saudi, and in that fight, the first sort of four rounds, he was catching him with big shots and was boxing extremely well.

Look, you know, he [Moses] is a young man. He’s undefeated as an amateur, you know, won the European Championships, knocking everybody out in the first round, won the World Championships, the ones he didn’t knock out, he put on the floor. You know, he’s a winning fighter.

He’s got a winning mentality, and one thing that I find about him is that he’s very, very mature mentally, and he really fancies this job. We’ve had a lot of discussions about it, and he’s, you know, he’s not somebody who just goes into a fight. He studies his opponents and looks for what he feels, you know, what their weaknesses may be and how he can exploit them, and that’s what I like about him, and I think that this is going to be a, it will be a tough fight, and we’re going to see what he’s all about.

You know, I’ve got it right, because obviously, the end of it all, it’s me who’s sort of pushed this and made the decision, so fingers crossed that that is the case, but I do believe in him, and I do think he’s a very precocious talent, and I do think he’s capable, but I have utmost respect as well for Filip.

Thanks, Frank.

Frank, good to see you, thanks for your time. We know Moses is kind of a low-key, understated sort of guy, but how was he when he heard that this is for a world title? Did you sense a deep excitement in him this time?

Yeah, when he signed with us as an amateur he said he wanted to be the youngest ever world champion. That was his ambition, and I think that like all young fighters, when you’re young, you all want to do the best, be the best, and obviously, once he turned pro, you see what a steady road and how difficult that can be, but when I told him this happened, he was over the moon. It was like he’d resigned himself to… he wasn’t going to be the youngest champion because he’d passed the age that Mike Tyson had won the title at, but he was so thrilled. I mean, unbelievably thrilled. For him, this was the cherry on the cake. He wanted to fight, he wanted to fight Hrgovic, and having the IBF title on the line has made it even more spicy, and more of a challenge.

And similarly with Hrgovic, how was he when he heard, because he clearly does fancy the fight, did you again sense perhaps a deeper intensity in him now that he knows it could end up with him being a world champion?

Well, I did promise him he’d get a shot at the world title, and it’s happened. It wasn’t something that we planned at the time we first made the fight, but it’s happened, and he’s over the moon as well. I mean, look, for these guys, we’re all sick vacating the belts, choosing not to defend them.

This has made it even more exciting times, so these guys know what’s on the line. They know that whoever gets this belt, they’ve got currency, and they are considered to be a world champion, but they’ve also got the currency of what it brings with them, the money that they can earn out of being the world champion. So it’s going to spur them on even more, and for Hrgovic, that’s what he’s all about.

He wants this world title.

Cheers for your time. I suppose you could say there’s a couple of similarities between when Anthony Joshua first won the world title, same arena, same belt, not too dissimilar in terms of records, obviously not age, but that really kind of started AJ’s ascent to sort of superstardom here.

I suppose you’ll be thinking this will be the start of Moses.

Well, I hope it will be, although I do think that Hrgovic is a much better fighter than Charles Martin, although he had the belt, but he also got the belt by default when Tyson vacated when he had his problems. But yeah, it’s part of his journey.

This is the journey.

So you guys will have the confidence that he’ll go on to even surpass what Joshua and the others did?

Look, that’s what we do as promoters, and we invest in fighters that we believe in, and we’ve been investing in him since he was 16. It’s not something overnight, he’s been with us now for, he’s coming up to his sixth year since he signed to be with us.

And this has all been part of the plan. And it’s a tough fight. I hope he wins it, I believe he can win it.

If he doesn’t, it’s part of his education. But I do believe he can win it. But I don’t see this as being any easy job by any means.

And as the fight goes on, we’ll see if the fight, if that’s if the fight does go on. What I’ve seen of Moses up to as yet, and the fight and the caliber of the fighters he’s beaten, I know who the fighters are. Some obviously may have not been the fighters they were a couple of years ago.

Having said that, that’s the same for all fighters coming through. But it’s how you win, how you go about your business. And the way he’s been fighting and the way he goes about his craft and his and applies his trade is far in front than anybody I can think of at his age.

Yeah. And I read an interview you did with the BBC where you said, already, if things go well, and he wins the belt, there’s unifications potentially at Wembley. It’s very rare that a fighter will know the next two fights, if he wins this.

Do you think maybe if he wins this, then Sanchez, he could look at those stadium fights after that?

Yeah, look, he’s got to win it first. If he wins it, one thing’s for sure, the British heavyweight scene is alight. You’ve got a big fight coming up with the two senior heavyweights in Tyson and AJ.

Everybody is obviously waiting for that to happen in November and to be announced. And in the meantime, you’ve got all these guys all jockeying around, Moses, Daniel Dubois, who holds a belt, who is a champion, Fabio Wardley, who’s going to challenge him in October, plus the others that are all there. The heavyweight scene is just amazing.

When I think of when I took my license out with the Board of Control 46 years ago, I look at this and it is amazing because there were no Brits, no Brits had won the world heavyweight title at that stage.

Okay, finally for me, in an ideal world, but maybe not a realistic world, as a promoter, would you dream of maybe Itauma fighting the Joshua-Fury winner in a sort of an unconfirmed passing of the British torch?

I think all of those fights are available. All of those fights are there to be done if the fighters want to do them. And as I say, exciting times, what a great fight that if Moses comes through, Daniel Dubois is down the road, two massive punchers, what a fight that would be.

That’s a stadium filler all day long.

Frank, thanks for giving us some of your time. Obviously, you’ve got this stronghold on the division, which has been well publicised.

How soon do you think it could be before we see a new undisputed champion crowned?

I think it will happen within the next 18 months, two years. You know, obviously they’ve got the belts have got to be fought for, vacant belts, whatever it is, they’ll all be fought for. We’ve got to get the governing bodies together to agree a unification programme.

And that means mandatories being pushed back and so forth. So there’s a lot of things to be done. But we’re in a bit, I mean, one thing no one can accuse us of is getting these fights on.

We’re making this division move. I don’t think the heavyweight division’s had so many title fights on like this in succession for many, many, many years. And we’re making it happen.

And I do believe that we will when our goal and ultimately where we want to be is to see who’s the best out of these bunch of fighters, see who’s going to be the best and hold the four belts and go and move on from there.

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Dan Rafael and I go back many years. We have also had similar career paths in that we qualified as journalists and then cut our teeth on local newspapers away from the back pages as we waited for openings in the sport we were both most-passionate about.

Dan is the best-known boxing journalist in the world. He was formerly with USA Today, then moved to ESPN, and now his home is here, on Substack.

Tris Dixon: What a strange weekend in boxing. I’m not sure I’ve seen anything like it. Tyson Fury in Thailand, Anthony Joshua in Saudi Arabia. Usually when we have these sort of semi-finals, it’s an infomercial to set up something you can’t wait for. It didn’t really work, did it?

Dan Rafael: I mean, obviously it’s still a big fight because people want to see those two great names against each other in a fight that a lot of us have waited a long, long time for.

But I don’t think that these two appearances helped either one of them. I mean, that’s just being real about it. Fury kind of lumbered his way through a sparring session for seven rounds and then Mariusz Wach retired or his corner stopped the fight.

I didn’t feel like he was taking punishment where he had to stop the fight, but okay. I mean, I guess it is what it is. And not only that, but fighting in an unusual location like Thailand, not even being the main event of that card, I believe he was the second bout of the show and the rest of the show were local Thailand club fights, no broadcast. I know that Tyson had said that they were recording the bout for use on their reality series on Netflix although they’re certainly not going to show all seven rounds of the fight.

That was kind of weird. So I saw it. I’m sure like, if you’re a lunatic boxing person like myself, I went and found somebody that posted the full fight on their YouTube channel.

And then fast forward 24 hours later to Anthony Joshua. He gets dropped twice and looks like he’s about to get knocked out when the wind blows. And to his credit he came back and he got a knockout against a fighter that, in my opinion, was just abominable matchmaking.

Why would you take a fighter like Anthony Joshua, known to have some chin problems, coming off of the layoff, the mental anguish of what occurred with his friends and put them in that kind of fight with a guy who has no other possible way to win unless he can land the big bomb? And he did exactly that and came within a whisker of winning. And so it was made to me very, very clear that although Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua had been great heavyweights and are the dominant forces of this era, other than Usyk, both probably going to be Hall of Famers someday, they’re at the end and it showed every bit of that this past weekend.

Did you go from one to the other though, after Fury, did you think, ‘Oh, he doesn’t look good, this is Joshua’s now,’ and then after Joshua’s, go back to Fury and think, ‘Oh no, I think Fury wins that one’?

I mean, I’ve always sort of gone back and forth about it. I feel like that the more talented fighter, just skill for skill is probably Fury, but punch for punch, Joshua was the bigger puncher.

I know that Anthony has been knocked out in the past. Fury has never been stopped, but both guys have been on the floor. And many times. I went and I counted it up. I don’t know if maybe I’m off by one or two, but by my count, Anthony Joshua has been on the floor 11 times in his career and Tyson Fury has been on the floor seven times in his career and with any other referee in the history of boxing should have a knockout loss on his record in the first fight against Deontay Wilder [when Jack Reiss allowed Fury to continue].

So they’re both extremely vulnerable. And so if anybody can land a big shot, when they finally fight each other, that could be the big difference.

I’m not trying to sell it, but do you feel like now they’re as evenly matched as they’ve ever been? Because there was a big period of time when Fury was going through maybe the Wilder fights and Joshua was getting over the Andy Ruiz defeat where I would have lent strongly towards Fury.

Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, I still probably make Fury the slight favourite, but it’s kind of a pick ‘em fight.

They both have the power to knock the other guy out. Both guys could get knocked out. It’s a fight that we should have seen several years ago.

Anthony Joshua almost cost himself another huge fight that people wanted to see. And it was not Anthony Joshua’s fault the previous time, but not that long ago, they had a signed contract for Deontay Wilder after a long, long time with them having gone all those years without fighting each other. And finally they signed a contract.

They’re on the same card. Anthony Joshua gets a victory against Otto Wallin. And then in the previous fight on that card, it was Deontay Wilder taking a loss and ruining that fight.

He [Joshua] was almost within a whisker of losing two of the big ones in terms of getting them made. I hate tune-up fights.

I understood why Joshua took one, given what happened in December. I didn’t think that Fury necessarily needed one when he just fought in April. Tune-up fights are horrible.

Well, there are some that spring to mind that would have been there in your tenure with Baldomir beating Judah and Felix Sturm pushing Oscar De la Hoya to that very controversial one.

I remember, I wasn’t covering boxing at the time, but I spoke about this exact one when I did my own podcast with my partner TJ on Sunday night, I was thinking when Joshua was getting off the floor for the first knockdown, the first thing that came to my mind was Tommy Morrison with a signed contract for $8 million to fight Lennox Lewis and he decides to dick around and take a so-called hometown warmup fight in a defence of the WBO title against the unknown and completely obscure Michael Bent.

And like two minutes later is knocked out in the first round. And there goes the Lennox Lewis fight and the title shot against the WBC champion.

So as things stand, is Fury-Joshua a superfight?

It is for Britain. It is for boxing fans. It drives me crazy that there’s a movement for those who are financing it to insist that it takes place in the United States. As an American, I’m almost embarrassed that we’re trying to take this fight from you guys, because this fight belongs at Wembley Stadium or at the very least in the indoor stadium in Cardiff that can hold like what, 80-85,000 people. Somewhere in the United Kingdom.

We don’t really want this fight. We don’t need this fight for whatever reason. The powers that be, I think mainly Netflix, wants to fight here for our time zone.

I can’t tell you how many people that I’ve heard from on my social media, fans as well as people in the business who I’ve talked to or texting me or whatever, think it’s absolute lunacy for anybody to insist that this mega British fight between two huge names takes place in America. I mean, it will sell tickets here.

I guess if they put it at the MGM Grand or the T-Mobile Arena or Madison Square Garden, they’ll sell the tickets. And probably a lot of it will be the Brits that come over to buy those tickets the way they did when Anthony Joshua fought here against Andy Ruiz the first fight, and many Brits came out when Tyson Fury was fighting all three bouts against Deontay Wilder. But this is not an American fight.

We don’t need this.

Do you feel like it’s lost some of its lustre for that casual American audience now?

I don’t think there ever was an audience from the casual American.

Wow. Okay.

I mean, you follow boxing, you know, Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury, and you’re interested to see these two big names and long-time stalwarts of the top of the heavyweight division finally fight after a long time of not having done it. I view this fight as sort of like, however you want to date the era, but this is like the last man standing of this era of what I feel is a very good heavyweight era… Joshua Wilder, Fury, Usyk, and a few others that are more on the periphery.

I’ve said this before, the 1990s had that great era led by Lennox Lewis and ‘Iron’ Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe and the second career of George Foreman and plenty of others, Tommy Morrison and Razor Ruddick and Ray Mercer. And they all kind of mostly fought each other through the years and that petered out.

And when Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson finally fought, although not in the nineties, briefly into the 2000s, that was the last fight. And when that fight was over, it sort of closed the era. We’re at that point with this era, when Fury and Joshua will fight each other and perhaps around the same timeframe, Usyk and Wilder fight each other, that’ll close the book, on this particular era, which has been a very good one.

That version of Joshua that we saw this weekend, and I don’t want to ignore the personal strife he’s had to overcome to get to where he’s got to, but if you’re in the ring, you’ve got to be judged by how you are in the ring, I don’t think that version of Joshua beats Kabayel, Dubois, Itauma, maybe even Wardley and even maybe possibly Rico Verhoeven after what we saw Rico do against Usyk. I think there’s five to 10 fighters, maybe Hrgovic as well, that could beat Joshua. And if Fury’s legs are gone as badly as people are suggesting, I think it could be the same for them. I’m not sure these are two top five heavyweights anymore.

They’re probably there just on name, I guess, at this moment in time. I mean, Dubois already beat Anthony Joshua and did so in spectacular fashion, but I can’t disagree with you. Sometimes when people do ratings and things like that, you kind of give the more known commodity the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

I mean, Joshua, you look at the end of the day, he did win by spectacular knockout against Prenga.

Do you give them any credit for breaking Jake Paul’s jaw in two places and getting that knockout? I mean, he did what he was supposed to do even if it might have taken a couple of rounds longer than most people would have anticipated. Hard to say, but I don’t disagree with anything you said. There are definitely a lot of heavyweights out there that would probably beat both these guys at this point, but it does not change what they have done does not change their level of fame, what they’ve accomplished, and the meaning of them fighting each other, at least when they fight each other, whether it’s now or it was a few years ago, they’re at about the same stage of their careers.

They’ve seen their ups and their downs around the same timeframe. So they’re both kind of near the end so it’s still like an even fight.

Even if they had fought a few years ago when they were at a much higher level in their careers, it would have been an even fight. I still want to see it just for the sake of the history of this era of heavyweight boxing.

Is it like Lennox and Tyson now?

The difference though, between Lennox and Tyson, is that Lennox was the champ. Fury and Joshua, neither one of them are champions and that was a fight that Lennox badly wanted for his legacy. Tyson needed it because of financial reasons. Showtime needed it for financial reasons because they had spent so much money on loans to Tyson – it had to happen for a lot of different reasons.

And, of course, they were the two biggest names at that time. I mean, Holyfield was still there kicking around, but he’d already defeated Tyson twice. I don’t think this is quite the same as that fight, even though Lennox was champ, but both guys were obviously not at their best anymore.

But at the time it was the biggest revenue fight in the history of the sport. It’s going to be hard to assess that with Joshua and Fury, because there is no pay-per-view. It’s Netflix putting up whatever they’re putting up, I’m sure many tens of millions of dollars to do the event, but we’ll never truly know from a financial point of view, does it break a heavyweight record or anything like that? And by the way, if they do it in the United States, it has no chance to do that because the gate will not come close to what it would have been in Britain.

If you were going to scale it, what would you say from a 50-50 fight, which way would you lean and towards who?

I mean, I have to lean slightly towards maybe Fury, 55-45, maybe something like that. But it’s a toss-up type fight and they’re both very vulnerable.

The only thing is, though, it’s not the kind of fight where the guy who wins, you’re like, ‘Oh, now he’s going to go on and fight for the heavyweight championship.’

I guess the guy who wins could get a shot just because of their name value and they’ll have beaten the other guy with name value, but it’s not the type of fight where you’ll feel like the guy who wins is truly like the next top contender to get the shot.

Joshua’s mantra going into this was beat Prenga, beat Fury and then unify. That’s what they wanted to do. It looks borderline impossible now, right?

I mean, nothing is impossible, I guess, but I’d be quite surprised by that. And I don’t know how much longer either guy has their heart on fighting after this Fury, even though he’s retired like a thousand times, he’s said how he just wants to keep fighting and fighting and fighting.

I think we’ll see him probably kicking around a bit longer than Anthony Joshua when it’s all said and done. I guess we’ll have to wait and see, but in the meantime, I’m not really trying to piss on the fight or anything like that, I am still personally looking forward to it. I’m just a little irritated by the length of time it took to make it and the fact that they downgraded it to some degree because of their pretty rough performances over the weekend.

These four guys, Usyk, Wilder, Joshua, Fury… say they all retire a year apart from each other. Are they all first ballot future Hall of Famers?

I mean, Usyk a hundred percent is no question about it. And I would say that Fury and Joshua probably are. Wilder, it’s going to be a tough one on him.

I covered Deontay’s entire career. I was at his pro debut, covered a lot of his championship fights, covered him for years and years. I’m just not sure he has the resume to get in. And when I say that it’s kind of weird because you would think the guy that was the WBC heavyweight world champion for five years, made 10 title defences, more title defences than Mike Tyson, for example, that it wouldn’t be a question mark. And the reason is because, and it’s not his fault, he was not in a division at the time that had a top level of premium opponents.

And then you look at what else Deontay has on his record. He lost the two fights against Tyson Fury and the first one was called a draw.

A lot of people felt that Tyson Fury was the rightful winner of that fight. So I’m not sure what’s the win that Deontay can kind of hang his hat on that’s actually Hall of Fame worthy other than a certain amount of longevity as a WBC champion. It’s a tough one.

But there’s no question Usyk is a first ballot Hall of Famer. And I would say if you said to me, rank them, it’s Usyk, it’s Fury, it’s Joshua, and then probably Deontay.

Although you can argue Joshua too. He’s got a great resume. He’s beat a lot of good guys.

People kind of, they forget wins against really quality guys. I mean, the Joseph Parker victory and the Klitschko victory and others as well.

It’s been an interesting era. And I think history will remember it fondly. I remember there have been heavyweight eras where they’ve been criticised and then they are later remembered through almost rose-tinted glasses. I think this era’s had something for everyone. I think we just would have liked this fight maybe two or three times instead of once at the end.

Yeah, it’s hard to disagree with that. I mean, the thing about when people assess the eras is they call it late. I’m proud to say that I have consistently for years talked about ‘when it’s over, you’ll look back on the current era…’

And I talked about the guys I mentioned with the big four plus a few other guys and people will look back and say, ‘Damn, that was a good era.’ I think you can really argue it might be like, what, maybe the third or fourth best era in the history of heavyweight boxing.

Most people look at the seventies of a Foreman and Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and the other supporting contenders. And then, of course, the nineties that we talked about just a little while ago with the led by Lennox and Holyfield and Tyson and Riddick Bowe and a bunch of other guys, the older version of George Foreman. But this one, I think is not that far away.

A lot of these guys fought each other and made tremendous fights. A lot of guys that were evenly matched guys who came in with big amateur accolades and were willing to fight the other top guys. We had plenty of great action fights with all these men.

I introduced you as the King of Boxing Substack at the start. Obviously as someone who’s recently arrived here, was it a brave decision for you to do?

No bravery at all. No.

Okay. Because, because even now there’s like a little reluctance from people to step away from legacy media. I know your time at ESPN had come to an end, but I’m sure there were offers and there have been offers.

Well, when my contract was not renewed at ESPN, I thought to myself, the silver-lining was the end of my contract was right at the beginning of COVID.

So I wasn’t missing anything for the first like year, because at least for the first three or four months, anyway, nothing was happening in boxing. So I was thinking to myself when that happened, listen, being honest, I made a lot of money at ESPN. I got no complaints ever once about my paycheck on the way out the door. I was told by one high-ranking executive that I was making too much money. And I’m sure that was part of the reason why my contract was not renewed, but that’s neither here nor there.

The point was my intention was on the next day, I had said to my wife, ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do, but we’re fine financially. I’m going to relax. I’m going to take the spring, maybe the summer off.’ COVID was happening.

There was nothing going on and I’d figure out what I want to do. And thanks to some people that I’ve known in this business for a long time, within a few days, people called and said: ‘You want to write some stuff?’

I never had heard of Substack at all.

I didn’t even know what it was. The reason I think I heard it was because my mother mentioned it to me. She had read an article about it, maybe in the New York Times or in some story or saw something on TV about it.

And, and she’s like, ‘You should check this out. It might be something that could work for you.’ I was like, ‘Well, let me check.’

Asked my wife, she said: ‘Yeah, I know what Substack is.’ And she subscribed to like a couple of newsletters, not about boxing, but about other things that she was interested in. And then I come to realize as I’m doing my research that two of my old buddies from my days at ESPN, my good pal, Mark Stein, who was the legendary NBA writer and my old wingman for many fights, I covered for ESPN, Arash Markazi, who had left ESPN, had gone to the Los Angeles Times and then had a struck out on his own.

They had Substack, so I asked them for counsel, ‘How was this working for you guys? What do you think?’ And I got some ins and outs from those guys and I was like, ‘You know what, let me give this a try.’ So I created it in like January 2020 or 2021. I forget what year it was. It was free.

And I just wanted to kind of stay involved. I was still doing a bunch of freelance stuff. And it got to a point where I was like, ‘I can’t just keep doing this for free. I gotta make a decision. What am I going to do?’ And I was like, ‘I’ll offer a paid-plan also,’ and anybody who’s familiar with Substack, there’s a paid formula, most people have behind a paywall, but they offer some content for free just as part of the whole deal. And so I turned it as a paid product.

And Tris, let me tell you, I didn’t know if one person would buy a subscription or five people or a hundred people or a thousand people. It’s not like I went out and did market research. There were no focus groups.

I knew I had somewhat of a name within the business from my days at USA Today and ESPN. And that was obviously very helpful. And I can’t even explain in words, the pleasantness of my surprise that people were willing to support independent journalism, boxing or otherwise, and bought subscriptions to my product.

And I have been now doing it for six years and it is how I make my primary living. Even if I got rid of my other stuff, I do my podcasts and some other occasional freelance things I did, I can make a living doing it the way I’m doing it. So I’m thrilled and I’m happy. I tell people I don’t work for myself, but I really work for the readers.

They’re the ones that buy the subscription. And so, fortunately enough, people have done it and it’s worked out great for the last six years.

Were you an overnight success or like how long did it take? Because you’ve got more than 15,000 subs, right?

Now they’re not all paid, by the way.

For sure. I get that.

It wasn’t overnight. I’ve worked my ass off on this every single day for six years. And I did it for free for eight months before I ever even thought about making it into a paid product. Just because, in my mind, I was still weighing other opportunities, thinking about what else I might want to do.

I didn’t want to ask somebody to pay me their money and not give it my full attention. So I don’t want to like turn it into a pay product and do it half-assed. When I decided to make it a paid thing, and there’s still some things obviously that are not for pay, but you can still see plenty of stories and posts that are not behind the paywall, but once I determined, ‘I’m gonna make this available for pay, I want the people that put their hard-earned money to get their money’s worth, I’m there to give them everything I got.’

And so hopefully they keep with it. And so far, it’s been more of a success than I could ever have imagined. It’s a beautiful thing. It really is. It’s capitalism. It’s independence. It’s all that stuff.

With your history of legacy media and journalism, local journalism as well, let’s not forget where you’ve worked for smaller newspapers on the way through before you got to USA Today, so you’ve got that legacy background. Is it tough to embrace this new thing where you’re stepping away from the establishment and everything that you got taught on the way through in journalism, the structure, it’s no longer the one we existed in for two decades?

Yeah. I mean, it’s hard to be your own editor. Obviously I strive not to make mistakes, but inevitably you’re going to make a spelling mistake or you’re missing this, or you’re missing that.

And, you know, I write a story about Tyson Fury, forget to put his name in the story and I’ve got to go back and fix it, but it’s too late for your people who get the emails. You can change it on the website, of course, but the folks that already got your blast, it’s kind of too late. So I kind of struggle with that from time to time, but the tenets of journalism have never changed. It doesn’t matter if I’m working for ESPN or USA Today, places that have extremely high standards for their journalism or the local newspapers that I work for that I didn’t do boxing at. I learned the trade well before when I worked at small newspapers in places like Saratoga Springs, New York and Binghamton, New York.

And before that on my college newspaper and taking some college classes and learning journalism, those things have been pounded into me and driven me by my editors that I’ve had for my entire career when I worked for those outlets. That doesn’t just go away. I still hold myself to the same standards that any reputable journalism outlet would hold.

I try to make sure I’ve got my sourcing correct. I make sure I’m not going to libel anybody, and be as accurate as humanly possible. And I’ve been criticised by some in the boxing space that I’m sometimes too conservative when I’m going to go with a story because I’m not willing to be wrong, you know? I take humongous pride and always have, and this even goes back to my days at the paper at USA Today and at ESPN, is if I write something that I can be trusted. It’s not fake news. It’s legit, and I take great pride in that. And I want to keep that reputation and whether it’s on Substack or it’s on a normal mainstream press-type of thing, it doesn’t matter. But I’m doing my Substack.

I have seen some other boxing people come into this space. I wish everybody good luck, but I’m going to tell you it’s hard work, man. And to make money at it is really difficult, but I’ve managed to be able to do it.

Who was the last fighter to call you out, Dan? Obviously, you’re so well known that I’ve seen you cross swords with people for years. Who was the last guy who got onto you or the last big name who called you out on X for whatever reason?

That’s a good question. I have been called out by a lot of guys over there. I mean, it’s been consistent for the last few years. I can’t tell you the last time, but I’ve certainly had my ups and downs with Ryan Garcia, at times, no doubt about it.

And by the way, when he was telling me when he tested positive for the drugs, after the Devin Haney fight and that I was lying or whatever, every single thing I wrote turned out to be 100 per cent accurate. He did get suspended. He did test positive. He did settle with the commission… things along those lines. And I don’t say that because I have any beef with Ryan Garcia. I’ve known him for many years. I had a very good relationship with him.

I knew him since he’s basically a teenager and right around the time he was turning professional. So I don’t have no ill will towards him whatsoever, but that’s one guy. I’ve had my battles, but it’s not because I’m trying to be antagonistic to these guys.

You know the business. You’ve been around boxers for many years. Also that a lot of fighters and not just boxers, but managers and promoters and other people in the business, broadcasters, they have thin skins, and the thing I always found about the fighters, they have such bravery in the ring and they’re such hard men and women and they can deal with the physicality and the pain and all the things that go along with being a professional fighter, which I admire every single one of them that steps up into that ring, but when they’re outside the ring, if you have a mild criticism, they break into a thousand pieces.

They can’t take it. It’s just sort of always been an anomaly to me. Like they’re such tough people physically, but emotionally the smallest criticism just breaks them apart and they lash out and they can’t take constructive criticism.

Sometimes it goes a little beyond that, but it’s sort of weird to me. But I’ll say this, though, all the fighters I’ve ever had those sort of battles with for the most part, everything always ended up being cool. I had a four-year thing with Bernard Hopkins years and years ago, I was just texting with Bernard the other day. I had my battles with your buddy Carl Froch. I saw Carl Froch a few years ago, in Texas, at a Canelo fight when he was fighting Billy Joe Saunders and we’ve been cool for years. I love Carl. I mean, point is, life’s too short to hold those grudges. You know what I mean?

I would read that Substack story though, Dan, if you wrote something about these personal times you’ve been called out on social media.

I mean, there’s been times… Shannon Briggs tried to beat me up or tried to fight me at ringside one time. And James Toney probably would punch me in the face if I saw him today. Shit happens, you know?

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It’s fair to say I’ve been in nicer parts of Philadelphia than the sweltering basement of the Shepard Recreation Center in the Haddington neighbourhood.

But amongst this poor, depressing concrete jungle is a former Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight title challenger with a tale to tell.

And it is quite a story because Tyrell Biggs faced most of the top fighters of his generation (Riddick Bowe, L RSF 8, and Lennox Lewis, L RSF 3, as well as Tony Tubbs, Gary Mason, Francesco Damiani, David Bey and James Tillis) and he had a rivalry with Mike Tyson that spilled over from the amateurs.

First things first, however, and he was saddened to hear of the death of Mason, who stopped him in seven back in 1989 at the Royal Albert Hall.

Gary died in January 2011 when he was struck while cycling in South London. Biggs did not know but fondly remembered a “strong guy with a big punch”.

(Main picture: Author’s collection)

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Raymond Muratalla fights Robson Conceicao on August 1 and here he talks about working with trainer Robert Garcia, being in camp with “Bam” Rodriguez, and his hopes for the future.

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Sometimes this sport is a dog’s world. A place that is lonely, aggressive, where doors slam shut, snide things are said, backroom deals are done and ethics are parked at the door.

At other times, it is the most welcoming, uniting sport you could hope to be a part of.

I’m sitting with Axel Schulz, the German heavyweight icon – and even that grand title doesn’t really do him justice – and via a translator, we are talking about his career.

Sat in a quiet corner of a hotel lobby near Mannheim, he’s perched with a glass of water in one hand, wearing some pale blue slacks, bright white Lacoste trainers, a long-sleeved grey sweater with a white T-shirt beneath and a hat with a boxing glove and ‘Axel’ written on it.

There are no real signs of his former profession.

He no longer looks like a heavyweight, though he remains well-built. His teeth are immaculate, to the extent that they are noticeably pristine, his nose is not flattened and he smiles warmly, the way a grandfather might do when his relatives arrive.

Schulz kindly plays the hits for me.

He talks about his nights against George Foreman, Michael Moorer and Francois Botha, but we will get to them.

I see him listening to me intently, trying to pick out words that he knows. His English is actually not that bad, and supersedes by far the remnants of my GCSE German, which scraped me a C grade in 1995.

We must have been talking for about five minutes, however, before I said some words that caused him to smile. I said Henry Maske, Fritz Sdunek, Uli Wegner, Ruediger May and his eyes lit up.

Suddenly, this man who was already just fine giving me some time invited me in to a deeper conversation.

“You know your stuff,” he said, and he leaned towards me with a welcoming enthusiasm.

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“Torsten May,” he added, as I compiled the list and asked about the evaporation of the German boxing market.

But then I get back to what I’m here to find out about, Axel and his life in and after boxing.

“It’s been very interesting,” he beams. “I’ve been a very busy man. I go to live [boxing] shows, and I have other projects. For 13 years, I’ve been in the food and beverage business, and my main focus is on barbecue sauce and barbecue rub.”

With that, he reaches for his iPhone and shows me a new gin brand that is also now part of his range.

But it was the BBQ sauce that allowed him to crack the market.

One wonders if that was his answer to his old foe, Foreman, and his grilling machine.

“It was a coincidence,” he smiles. “And now I have 31 licensed products in supermarkets and online.”

I joked that they should have worked together. Schulz laughed at that.

And his story is threaded through that of the second-coming of Big George.

They met in 1995 in the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Foreman was defending the title he’d beaten Michael Moorer for and the old American was a big favourite. Foreman also made $10m to the German’s $350,000.

At the end of the fight, Schulz held his arms aloft, convinced he’d done enough and HBO’s Harold Lederman felt he’d won by 117-111 but, alas, the judges favoured Foreman and a forlorn Schulz left empty-handed on the wrong end of a dubious majority decision.

When I asked Schulz whether he harboured any ill-feeling toward what happened in Sin City, he only smiled. And when I tried to prompt some emotion, he only grew more defiant.

“Yes, but it’s a long time ago. It’s 30 years ago,” he said, plainly.

Then, he concedes he directs stronger feelings elsewhere.

“It was the fight with Francois Botha that I wanted again, after that fight it was a bit crazy for me,” he explained. “I had a fight with Michael Moorer, it was very close but that is also okay.”

This time he was undone by a split decision, and in Germany.

Did that particularly bother him?

“No, not at all,” he smiled, trying not to give ground.

Then, however, he offered again: “But I was upset about Botha. I would have liked to have that again. I was more upset by that one than I was not fighting Foreman again.”

Because in between fighting Foreman and Moorer, Schulz ‘lost’ a decision to the South African in a fight that was later changed to a No Contest when Botha tested positive for steroids.

Again, many felt Schulz had won, and from the 11,000 fans in the Hans-Martin-Schleyer-Halle in Stuttgart, coins and beer bottles were flung into the ring in disapproval. But what really got to Schulz came later, when Botha failed his test.

It was heralded by many as a ground-breaking case.

“The doping scandal then actually turned out to be quite a catalyst for change in the industry and, because of that, there was more attention on doping, to prevent more of it,” he said. “The motivation behind today’s doping plan is thanks to that particular event. I felt there was an injustice and my motivation was to get a rematch – because of the injustice.”

I asked Schulz whether he felt doping in boxing was commonplace back then, mentioning the old Ivan Drago stereotype.

“I didn’t think about it. The whole Eastern European situation wasn’t part of my dialogue,” he said. “I think it was big in boxing then, before the testing.”

Schulz turned pro in 1990 and boxed up until an ill-fated one-fight comeback against Brian Minto in 2006.

“Money,” he said of his motivation to return. “I had no TV station, nothing, until Evander Holyfield fought [Nikolai] Valuev and I was an expert for Bild, the newspaper, and that came through Don King.”

He has been a staple ringside since, and I observed him regularly being stopped for pictures. The way I saw people talk about him once they realised who he was was different.

He wasn’t just a celebrity, he was someone who was clearly a part of the German household fabric. Everyone knew who Axel Schulz was.

In part, that is down to his post-boxing empire as well as his fighting days.

He and light heavyweight star Henry Maske were huge draws in Germany in the 1990s.

“Back then, it was a focus on one fight and one fight only,” he said of the structure of German shows and lack of depth in the bills. “It made it difficult to build up the next generation. It was sad, yes, but the most important thing is me and Henry Maske really worked hard for it. After the [Berlin] Wall came down, we were the two who went out of our way and got fighting. RTL [the TV station] came later on and boxing blew up. We did it with hard work but the focus was on the main fight and there being no focus on the undercard after we were no longer boxing – it was too late – because there was no platform for the next generation.”

There have been moments of German success since. The likes of Sven Ottke, Markus Beyer and Felix Sturm came later, but Germany was never known for its deep bills.

“If I compare it to MMA here in Europe, where the fighters are presented and introduced to everyone when the stadium is already full, that is something we could incorporate in boxing,” Schulz said.

And life after boxing has been good to Axel.

He is clearly content with his career, having twice boxed Henry Akinwande, fought Moorer, Botha, Foreman, Wladimir Klitschko, Bonecrusher Smith and Jose Ribalta.

“I have to say Wladimir Klitschko was the hardest,” he said of his opponents.

“The prowess [made it difficult], he has obviously his size, he was 100kg plus which was unusual at the time and now the big guys aren’t just over 100 kilos, they are 120 kilos and you could argue it’s like a new division, like a super heavyweight division.”
Times have changed. When Schulz came through, Germany was looking for a new Max Schmeling and the two German fighters met on occasion.

“I was at Max Schmeling’s house a couple of times,” Schulz recalled. “He was like a grandfather-type figure and what I remember was he had massive hands.”

With that, he segued effortlessly into a story about another heavyweight, Muhammad Ali.

Schulz was working as a pundit on-site at the second bout between Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield – the infamous Bite Fight.

“I was working as an expert and I got a call from Muhammad Ali’s manager, I thought it was a hidden camera, it was a hoax,” he grinned. “But I was invited and we visited Ali and that was the most iconic moment for me. Max Schmeling was like a grandfather and Muhammad Ali was Muhammad Ali, he was a star.”

With that, Axel again reached for his phone and soon enough found a picture of himself with The Greatest.

For Schulz and Schmeling, however, they both had commercial success after the final bell. Schmeling had one of the most significant franchises for Coca-Cola when it arrived in Germany.

“That was great,” said Schulz. “That was key for him, for a lot of money. A friend of Joe Louis’s gave him the license for Hamburg and then he sold it on after maybe 10 or 15 years.”

Often through our chat, Schulz was interrupted by fans hoping to speak with him, and that is clearly part of who he is now.

When Schulz retired from boxing, his record was 26-5-1 (11 KOs).

He’s 57, and I asked him what had been more successful, boxing or his food empire.

“I wouldn’t have one without the other,” he said. “I could use my boxing experience in my sales endeavours. They both had their times. In boxing, I was very successful. I had my success there and I took that athlete’s mindset into my business today.”

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But there’s no quit in Nico. He is fighting and here, he answers questions about the proposed changes to boxing law in the US, including what the changes mean, whether there are upsides, why many aren’t speaking out and why he is making it personal.

Canadian cruiserweight hope Ryan Rozicki is looking ahead to his fight with Chris Billam-Smith on Saturday but well aware of what has gone before him in boxing.

Rozicki is fascinated by boxing history; not his place in it, but the old-timers between about 1910 and 195 more specifically.

Sure, he might talk to you about James Toney or Mike Tyson, but the passion isn’t the same as when you go back into the black and white era.

And he remembers where it all came from, seeing Jack Dempsey brutalise poor Jess Willard in one of the most one-sided heavyweight routs of all time.

“That was the first boxing match I’ve ever seen on film,” Rozicki recalls.

“That’s what sparked my interest in old-school boxing and Dempsey in particular. I thought when I started boxing that boxing was for sissies because they wore gloves. I had to box; I was put into boxing from the youth justice system. I didn’t want to do it, but when I saw that particular fight, I was like, ‘Oh, well, this is not. He’s not a sissy. This is serious.’”

It was in 1919 that the ‘Manassa Mauler’ mauled Willard, leaving the ring with what reports listed as a broken jaw, a broken cheekbone, broken ribs, a partial loss of hearing in one ear and a damaged set of teeth.

“’This is violent,’” Rozicki thought. “That’s what drew me to boxing. He [Willard] was knocked down seven times. There was actually nine knockdowns. There was a couple that weren’t counted, but seven times in the first round. Everything I saw Dempsey do in that fight, it drew me to boxing because I know from experience outside the ring, get someone from behind, they can’t see it coming. That’s the best way to get somebody.”

Of course, all those years ago, there were stories of illegal tactics in the old days, from loaded gloves to gloves that had had padding removed.

“Listen, I don’t know. Dempsey, I’m sure he probably took some padding [out],” Rozicki smiled.

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“I would never say it to his face if he was here, but Dempsey would do anything to win. Like you said, the way he went to go around Willard’s back [to punch from the side], he’s the reason that there was a neutral corner rule put in place. It was because he didn’t give opponents a chance to get up. He was there to finish the fight. Dempsey would do anything to win. Look at the fight against Jack Sharkey. Hit him low, as soon as he looks to the ref to complain, knock him out.”

Rozicki is usually pretty deadpan but the fire in his eyes lights up at the mention of Dempsey. He’s devoured almost all he can on the former heavyweight star.

Rozicki would be around Dempsey’s size if the former heavyweight was boxing today but he has enough reverence to not talk smack about fighting the great Dempsey.

“Wouldn’t be good for me,” he said, had they shared a ring. “I don’t think it would last very long, but I would, yeah. He’s definitely in my top 10 [heavyweights] of all time.”

But didn’t he dodge a lot of opponents?

“No, I don’t think he did,” Rozicki argued.

“I think his handlers kept him away from certain fighters because they knew that Dempsey was coming at you. He might have been the first one to actually have a world championship that was only 10 rounds. They knew he was like dynamite in those first few rounds but then, if you look at his late [rounds] fights, didn’t do so well.”

Talking about how Dempsey crossed into the mainstream, with a Hollywood bride and celebrity fans, the Canadian was quick to add: “Got a nose job… Once he got to New York, he never wanted to go back.”

But while Rozicki was a fan of the brutal Dempsey, he also has the capacity to appreciate the artistry of, yes, someone like Pernell Whitaker, but going back far further, Willie Pep.

“I give them all the credit,” he said of the defensive wizards. “Although particularly, I watched the ‘50s back, I still do,” he said.

“Willie Pep, Will o’ the Wisp, he was the only fighter in history to win a round without throwing a punch. I actually watched a little bit of Pernell. He was unbelievable. I go through periods where I’ll watch it [old fights]. Eight hours straight. I’ll get into a fighter and then I want to learn everything about them and I’ll watch every fight I can find. I got actually, I haven’t said this yet, but I have a collection of fights that have never been seen before that are on VCR that was recorded by my old coach. He just died last year, but he was in his 90s.

“He was really close with Charlie Goldman and Rocky Marciano’s trainer. He used to tape all the fights back in the day. I have these fights that I can sit there for months watching these fights that have never been seen.”

Rozicki understands the theory posed by some that Harry Greb could be the greatest of them all, even though no fight footage exists of him. But has he looked through all of the tapes to see if there’s a Greb match on there?

“I’m not going to say that if it’s there because people will be coming looking for it,” he smirked.

But Marciano, incidentally, was underrated defensively, and that is something Rozicki hastily agrees with.

“100 per cent, Marciano’s a good example, yeah. It’s just people today that just don’t get it because they think everything is a certain way and if they see this, they think it’s just sloppy brawling or something, but they just don’t understand the subtle things that these guys are doing. They don’t understand that the gloves are smaller, so you couldn’t block punches. You know, there’s other ways to defend against punches.”

And while modern boxing might not be Rozicki’s thing, he does appreciate the sentiments of Zuffa Boxing – who he fights for this weekend – in their efforts to install one set of rankings and one champion in each weight class.

Unsurprisingly, that rings true with the old school Rozicki.

“Yeah, I’m all for it,” he said. “I’m here for it. It’s something I always said to myself, not out loud, but what they’re doing and their plans is, I think that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

“That’s the way it used to be. One champ and he had to fight the next best guy. He loses, he fights the next best guy. It’s very simple. That’s the way it should be.”

(Photo: Zuffa Boxing)

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Rico, thanks for doing this. Congratulations on what people are heralding as being the moral victor?

Yeah, man, thank you. Appreciate that.

Is that what it feels like with the fallout and the subsequent...

100%. ...the Uncrowned King.

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Saturday night, did it feel how you’d always hoped it would feel?

Yeah, yeah. It was a special week for me and it was unbelievable. I was lost for words after the fight and it’s took some time still. I’m still, what day are we on now? Tuesday. I’m still on a high. I got back late, Sunday night, midnight. The kids were straight back in the morning, nine o’clock and it’s been full on but it’s just been a whirlwind but it’s been amazing.

And I suppose it was, what made it better was the performance, right? You went into what was supposedly a 50-50 fight and really showed what you could do.

Yeah, it was. So I was mandatory for the WBO title or at least I was number one and I found myself in a tricky position where you’ve got Devin Haney as the WBO champion. I was mandatory for the WBO at 140 some years ago and I was chasing the belt and it went from Maurice Hooker, Ramirez, Taylor and I got sat out for quite a while.

So, when I become number one in the WBO, I was told that it could be up to a year before they call the mandatory which sucks really and I understand it. So, then my argument was, well, I’m not prepared to sit and wait. I’m 32 now.

I feel like I’m coming into good form. I’ve looked after my body. So, when the fight got proposed, it was a straight yes.

Another maturing fighter, and Shakhram found himself in that position as well. He was mandatory for Rolly [Romero], battling out for a year and we both agreed to fight within 24 hours and I’d had a bit of time to watch him. He’s boxed a couple southpaws.

So, I backed myself every day of the week and I knew that a victory here will definitely put me in a much greater position, whether that be for the super champion against Rolly or whether any of the other 147 fighters want to get it on.

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How important was it to start fast? You dropped him in the first round.

Yeah, you know what? This would be the third fight at 147. Unbelievable training camp. I felt strong. I stayed in the gym. So, I boxed in November. Went straight back in the gym the week after. Thought I was going to fight February, March. Ended up landing in May. But I’d used that time wisely, working on strength, staying in the gym, practicing. Went into that fight feeling good and I knew I had to get a foothold in the fight, I think.

From my experience, he was a high-level amateur. As soon as you let them get into kind of their flow, it was important for me to let him feel how strong I felt, fire some shots early, gain that respect and break his rhythm.

And it’s nice though, like you’re putting on these performances and people aren’t using the B [boring] word anymore.

Yeah, listen, I’m under no illusion. The next fight I could put on another clinic and people would say it’s boring. I’m past listening to advice of people that are not in my shoes.

But I guess it’s nice in some respects. I know I can fight, I do the work in the gym. Sometimes I’m my own worst critic and I’ve gone out there and beat people, probably in gear one and not done enough.

And I found myself cut short last year against Barbosa where it was a nip and tuck fight and he won it by a split decision and I could have done more. Went back to the drawing board, made the adjustments and I’d say slightly more conscious of winning the rounds more clearly and putting more work in.

Are you staying with trainer Stephen Smith now? Is this the team?

This is the team. So I left the gym with Jamie [Moore] back end of last year. I needed a gym to tick over whilst I was at home in England. Found myself through a friend of mine in Four Corners Gym in Liverpool with John Gillies and Stephen Smith.

Very grateful for them letting me use the gym. Then I went out to Philadelphia. I had a camp in Philadelphia which was great.

It was kind of just for me a break from what I was used to. Been in the same environment for many years. A fresh set of eyes.

Had the camp in Philly, that was great. Come back home, had the fight. Straight after the fight, I was straight back in the gym in Liverpool and initially thought I was getting back to Philadelphia.

January come, February come. Still no fight, still no fight, in this awkward position. Mandatory. Nobody’s willing to give me a shot. Didn’t know how long I was going to wait. We looked like we were going to fight Ramirez. That fell through. Got offered this opportunity on an eight-week notice. It was a yes straight away. I was in good form. I’d been sparring, I’d been training. I’d really gelled with the coaches in Liverpool.

For me, it was done. I was staying in Liverpool. Packed my bags, moved to Liverpool, stayed there Monday to Friday, put the work in.

More than happy with what the team produced and the work that we did in camp.

It’s only Tuesday, but you’ve gone straight to it, chasing down Rolly on socials.

You know what, it makes sense from my understanding. I was with the WBA president over the weekend and he’s going to push to make that fight. Now, we’ve seen stuff on social media, Rolly’s retired, he’s not boxed in a year, etc.

That would be, I would say, the easiest fight to make, but aside from that, I think I’ve shown that I’m willing to switch it up. I was going down the WBO route, I’ve gone down the WBA route now, but I just want to carry on fighting.

Do you know when you might be out? I did speak to, just because of the fight, I spoke to Peter Fury earlier and he was talking about Rico being September or October.

Do you feel like you will be in that similar time frame?

I believe so. I enjoy training, I enjoy being in the gym, but I understand my body. I’m going to have a week off this week, spend some quality time with the family, but I’ll be back in the gym next week, taking things easy and I would say September, October, that would be ideal.

Rolly’s obviously had a lot of fights over in Las Vegas. Is that something you would love to do, to get over to the T-Mobile or the MGM Grand and get on a big bill over there?

Of course. As amazing as Cairo was, fighting in the pyramids, once that bell goes, it doesn’t matter where the ring is.

We had an unbelievable fight week in Egypt, but listen, I’d love to fight Rolly in Manchester, but I think an American trip would be nice. It doesn’t bother me.

Well, that was my next question. Is there a dream? People always have these dreams and whether it’s a stadium or not, do you have anything on your bucket list or does it just keep going?

You know, it’s just keep going. I think the last couple of years, I was very, very grateful and very fortunate that I’d managed to headline and that was always a dream.

I’d been on a lot of great undercards over the years. I’ve boxed on Fury’s cards, big bills in Manchester, up and down the country and always been on the undercards. So to headline Manchester three times, twice at the Co-op, once at the AO, headlined Liverpool and Leeds.

There were some unbelievable nights. I just want to carry on fighting, carry on winning. I’d love to unify and pick up more belts.

You’ve come through so many obstacles, were there times when you thought it wasn’t going to happen for you?

Yes and no. I’ve stayed in the gym since I turned professional. I love fighting. I love the combat. I love everything about it. For me to be able to make a career and a living and provide for my family doing something I love is unbelievable. I got over that Taylor fight, I would say relatively quick because I was very fortunate to have a great run of fights after the fight and get back in the mix. Getting the rematch was unbelievable.

Frustrating because it wasn’t for the belts, but still that was another thing kind of off my conscience that I got the rematch and I beat him. He probably gave me a better fight the second time around and I raised my level and beat him again. I just want to be involved in big fights and if that’s where the world titles are, then brilliant.

So what was it then? Did you have to get yourself to snap out of it? If you were just like, yeah, this isn’t going to happen and then the devil on your shoulder saying, just jack it in, it’s not happening and you were saying, shut up, I’m going to the gym and I’m going to make it work.

I’m going to make it work. I’ll find a way no matter what, but yeah, like I said, I love being in the gym. If for one second I thought I wasn’t performing and I wasn’t like, I spar everybody and anybody and if I come home and I thought, you know what, I’m losing it, then I’m not daft. I’d pack it in, but year on year I keep feeling better. I’ve done a lot of great sparring with a lot of great lads up and down the country over the last couple of months and I’m finding my form again. So I’m not taking my foot off the gas.

Do you feel like a different fighter, a 147? Do you feel like you are more offensive?

You know what, it was probably just a shift in mindset. I’d left the gym where I was at, been there for quite some time and I wouldn’t say I got comfortable, but things became probably a little bit comfortable and I needed to snap out of it, made the transition, left the gym and put myself in some new situations, my back against the wall, finding myself needing to, wanting to prove myself again and that’s what I’m doing.

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Obviously, I know this Rolly fight is on the radar, but when you look at the guys in and around your weight class, obviously some of them tied to Matchroom, there’s big opportunities. I saw today there’s speculation that why not you and Lewis Crocker if he gets through the Paro fight?

Yeah, of course. So you’ve got Devin Haney, I believe he’s fighting Shakur, Conor Benn, Ryan Garcia, Rolly, hopefully me, Crocker, Paro. There’s a lot of great fights to be made.

So while it’s hot now, I’ve got my piece of silverware, I’m going to keep plugging away, stay in the gym and I believe that I’ll get some more this year.

When you say stay in the gym, like what, were you in today, tomorrow?

No, so I’ll have this week off. This fight landed nice for me, boxed on the Saturday, very grateful we had our parents, both sides of the family looking after the kids.

We’ve come back, it’s half term now, so it’s been nice just to not get up and rush about in the morning, but next week I’ll be back in the gym, I’ll be back training. The gym’s great at the moment, there’s a lot of fighters in the gym, a lot of stuff going on, and I like being in there. I like helping the fighters, sparring the kids, just doing what I can, but I’ll be out next week, I’ll be grafting.

Jack, thank you for the time. I’ve been pleased to see you get credit for your boxing.

No, I appreciate that, Tris, it was a good feeling Saturday. I know there was a lot of respect for Shakhram, Olympic silver medalist, world champion, amateur champion, a lot of experience with a lot of different styles, and I felt like I went in there, did my job, nullified him, put the work in, and I was over the moon with it.

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What’s your overriding emotion based on what happened on Saturday night?

Look, I haven’t got one. I thought it was a great fight. I thought Rico had done exceptionally well. For me, he got tired and he got fatigued, and he just made a mistake which we’d worked on for him not to do. That’s it. He made a mistake. He went forward. He went down. He threw some punches. I don’t know whether he landed or not. Then he came forward in the same position which, like somebody against Usyk is something you don’t do. So I think that’s a little bit of the disappointment for Rico is because he’d done what we’d worked on, even in the dressing room before the fight we discussed about this. But look, what he achieved and the pace he set and everything else, to get what he’s done there, made a mistake, but it all comes down to experience because to lead up to that, of course, and to lead up to the amount of fatigue that he ended up getting in the late rounds, it’s all down to ring experience. That’s all he needs is ring experience. But he’s done well.

And Usyk got the job done in the end.

You’re very gracious, Peter, talking about your man’s fatigue and getting tired. Lots of people in your position would just be screaming blue murder about the stoppage.

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